Yakutian LNBA, the urheimat of Uralic languages?

 While reading the study "Ancient DNA reveals the prehistory of the Uralic and Yeniseian peoples"  I noticed that according to the presented f4 analysis, the distance of Yakutia LNBA (LNBA - Late Neolithic and Bronze Age) from the Tatars is smaller than the distance of Cis-Baikal LNBA from Tatars. I found it strange, because the Tatars are significantly closer to the Baikal region. My second observation was related to the connection between languages and genetics. The study proves that the genetic distance between the Yakutia LNBA and the speakers of the Uralic languages proves that the Yakutia LNBA is the original population of the Uralic languages. However, the study does not make a comparison between all language groups in relation to the Yakutia LNBA samples, but uses as evidence the occurrence of a single Yakutia LNBA-type sample in the assumed area of occurrence of the Uralic language group. The emphasis is placed on the Seima Turbino phenomenon. 

Seima Turbino was a Bronze Age multi-ethnic trade channel extending from northwestern China to the regions of Finland and Estonia, and Seima Turbino has been thought to be connected to the westward spread of the Uralic languages. However, linguistic theory does not define the eastern home of the Uralic languages on the basis of Seima Turbino. The evidence for the presence of Seima Turbino is purely archaeological. Whether this unity of the Uralic languages is true or not, Seima Turbino was a multi-ethnic commercial and cultural phenomenon in which the Uralic languages may have been involved, but the evidence of a few ancient genomes cannot be significant.

I decided to perform a similar F4 test to see the distances of the Yakutia and Cisbaikal LNBA samples to the present-day samples of the different language groups. All the samples used in that test are available on the Reichlab website. The only exception compared to the Yakutia LNBA samples from the study is that I did not include one sample classified as Yakutia LNBA in the study, supposed to have a Seima Turbino origin and in this respect I only kept to the local Yakutia LNBA samples. This sample is presumably not relevant to the F4 results.

The study has been presented in Nature magazine in its final form, but is unfortunately behind a paywall there. The preprint from 2023 can be found at https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560332v2.full#ref-89.

All Yakutia LNBA and Cisbaikal LNBA samples are ready-made genotype files from public samples shared by Reichlab. There may be more samples from these two LNBA-era populations in the study. I have downloaded the bam-format samples used in the study, but I will leave them for later use for now.

Southern Uralic Mordovian and Mishar Tatars seem to be more like Cisbaikal LNBA than like Yakutia LNBA.  I don't know why my results using Reichlab genotypes and Reichlab program qpDstat gives different results. Maybe my readers can run tests to confirm which one is correct.

My results:

Study results:

Yakutia LNBA samples:
N4a1
N4b2
YAK021
YAK022

YAK024

Cisbaikal LNBA samples:
irk022
irk025
irk036
irk057
irk033
irk034
irk040
DA358
DA360
irk071
irk075
irk008
irk061
irk068
irk017
mak026
DA334
DA336
DA337
DA339
KAG002 
KPT001
KPT002
KPT003
KPT004
KPT006
STB001
ZPL001
ZPL002
I1526
I7335
I7759
I7779
I7780
I7782
I8296
DA343
DA353
DA356
DA361

Update 17.8.25 09.30. Used samples are listed in the study, in  "supplementary data 3" 

Late Iron Age and historic Finnish samples

I then processed those Finnish less than 1000 years old samples to see how close they are to the average of modern Finns. The processing took about 11 days on an antique Intel i7-4770k processor (old, but still powerful in sequential processing) core load 4x95%, core temperature 50° C  (outdoor temp was around 30° C).  The processor is overclocked to 4 Ghz and equipped with heatpipe cooling.

The fst table is attached here, according to which these ancient samples are Finnish, excluding poor quality samples and one outlier.  The first number represents Fst, the second margin of error.  Estonian and Finnish samples for comparison.  For some reason Swedish Human Origin samples are of low quality and excluded in this test. 

AncFinns Albanian.HO 0.011 0.0007 22.774
AncFinns Basque.HO 0.016 0.0006 33.853
AncFinns Belarusian.HO 0.005 0.0007 16.687
AncFinns Bulgarian.HO 0.009 0.0007 21.411
AncFinns CEU.SG 0.008 0.0004 34.300
AncFinns Croatian.HO 0.008 0.0007 20.183
AncFinns Estonian.HO 0.004 0.0007 14.664
AncFinns FIN 0.0 0.0004 15.356
AncFinns GBR.SG 0.007 0.0004 32.802
AncFinns Hungarian.HO 0.006 0.0006 19.687
AncFinns Italian_North.HO 0.011 0.0006 27.213
AncFinns Karelian.HO 0.002 0.0006 13.159
AncFinns Lithuanian.HO 0.007 0.0007 19.564
AncFinns Mordovian.HO 0.007 0.0006 20.099
AncFinns Norwegian.HO 0.007 0.0007 19.322
AncFinns Orcadian.HO 0.009 0.0007 23.084
AncFinns Romanian.HO 0.01 0.0007 23.574
AncFinns Rusnorth.HO 0.004 0.0006 17.414

Estonian.HO Albanian.HO 0.008 0.0005 17.099
Estonian.HO Basque.HO 0.013 0.0003 42.936
Estonian.HO Belarusian.HO 0.002 0.0003 4.656
Estonian.HO Bulgarian.HO 0.006 0.0004 16.452
Estonian.HO CEU.SG 0.005 0.0003 17.522
Estonian.HO Croatian.HO 0.005 0.0003 14.002
Estonian.HO FIN 0.004 0.0003 14.716
Estonian.HO GBR.SG 0.005 0.0003 18.039
Estonian.HO Hungarian.HO 0.003 0.0003 11.087
Estonian.HO Italian_North.HO 0.009 0.0003 28.091
Estonian.HO Karelian.HO 0.005 0.0003 15.439
Estonian.HO Lithuanian.HO 0.002 0.0004 5.323
Estonian.HO Mordovian.HO 0.003 0.0002 12.244
Estonian.HO Norwegian.HO 0.005 0.0004 15.060
Estonian.HO Orcadian.HO 0.007 0.0003 21.023
Estonian.HO Romanian.HO 0.006 0.0004 17.358
Estonian.HO Rusnorth.HO 0.001 0.0002 4.661

FIN Albanian.HO 0.011 0.0004 26.164
FIN Basque.HO 0.016 0.0002 64.162
FIN Belarusian.HO 0.006 0.0003 20.520
FIN Bulgarian.HO 0.009 0.0003 29.894
FIN CEU.SG 0.008 0.0002 47.108
FIN Croatian.HO 0.008 0.0003 29.320
FIN Estonian.HO 0.004 0.0003 14.716
FIN GBR.SG 0.008 0.0002 47.075
FIN Hungarian.HO 0.006 0.0002 33.404
FIN Italian_North.HO 0.011 0.0002 49.400
FIN Karelian.HO 0.002 0.0002 9.903
FIN Lithuanian.HO 0.007 0.0003 26.003
FIN Mordovian.HO 0.006 0.0002 37.043
FIN Norwegian.HO 0.007 0.0003 24.096
FIN Orcadian.HO 0.009 0.0003 36.037
FIN Romanian.HO 0.01 0.0003 33.117
FIN Rusnorth.HO 0.004 0.0002 27.333

A little explanation of why I consider the use of such samples to be completely pointless for the study of Finnish prehistory.  I am so enthusiastic about studying Finnish migrations and this age of the samples are of course disappointing.  It may be that these can provide additional information about local development in Finland. 

Archaeologists and linguists estimate that the Baltic Finns came to the Baltic Sea region 3000 years ago and the Finnish language arrived in Finland about 1700 years ago. With this timing, these samples cannot possibly give a development trajectory different from that of modern Finns in relation to ancient migrations. Determining the origin described as important would require the use of much older samples. If we take the 1700 year arrival in Finland as the starting point, then the samples from the Merovingian Age would represent 8-20 generations in Finland and a corresponding time of mixing with the populations already living here. This  corresponds to the time that the settlers have now lived in Kuusamo, Finland after Finnish settlers came there. 

Edit 1.8.2025 20.45 Polish, IBS, TSI, German and Saami results removed due to low quality (IBS, TSI and Saami due to DG-sample set  problems). 

Gunpowder is reinvented?

 Reading this study (-> link ) it comes to mind that gunpowder has been reinvented. When the reprocessed Yakut LNBA samples now show a similarity of 100% with Nganasans, 10% with Finns, 2% with Estonians and 0% with Hungarians, one can only say that these proportions match perfectly with, for example, the results of Haak et al. 2015. The only new thing here is the assumption that the Nganasan-type North Siberian genetic type originated in Yakutia in the Late Neolithic period.

The study connects this genetic type to the Seima-Turbino phenomenon. Seima-Turbino was a Bronze Age cultural phenomenon that spread from east to west across present-day Russia. Seima-Turbino has been assumed to be associated with the westward spread of Uralic languages, but is this phenomenon also related to the Late Neolithic or Early Bronze Age settlement of Yakutia in the  Eastnorth Asia and is it possible to tie straightforwardly 4000 years old minor genetic remains to the present?  I would appreciate to see YDNA results of those ancient Yakutians. Did they belong to N-P43 or to N-TAT.  Did Seima-Turbino burials belong to N-P43 or N-TAT? I prefer YDNA in  searching back thousands years.  Nowadays Yakutian N belongs mostly to the TAT and 3.8% to the P43, but present Yakutians are Turkic speaking "newcomers" in Yakutia.  I would guess that those Late Neolithic Yakuts belonged to the P43, while all present-day Finnish N, as well all Baltic N, belong to the TAT.  Ngansasans belong to the P43. 

If it is now stated that the new samples fully correspond to the Nganasan genetics in terms of the interesting genetics, then it has been proven that the North Siberian genetic type has migrated westward in the northern tundra zone and the same genetic type has been observed as part of almost all the peoples of the northern coniferous forest zone of Europe from present-day Russia to Scandinavia, but it has not been found in the most southerly Hungarians. In my opinion, it would be worth studying the genetics of the more southern Finno-Ugric peoples, such as the Mordvins and Erzyas.

The original study is unfortunately behind the paywall, so the link is to a press article.  It would have been nice to see also detailed results, but the price was too much this time. 

New Finnish samples from the late Iron Age and Finnish historic times

I found 49 ancient Finnish samples in ENA (European Nucleotide Archive) and downloaded them to my computer. The samples are from Häme, Pirkanmaa, and are almost 1000 years old or younger. My intention is not to analyze them because, with the exception of a couple, they look like modern Finns and based on this I would only conclude that they are Finns and that Finns lived in Finland already 1000 years ago.  It is known history.   Too much work compared to benefits. 

New study: Mothers on the move – thousands of complete mitochondrial sequences reveal the layered formation of the common maternal genepool of Finland and Estonia.

Here my summary of the study (-> link ).

Shared mtDna:

• The study found that a substantial portion of mtDNA sequences (around 40% in Finland and 15% in Estonia) belong to monophyletic clusters shared between the two countries, indicating a long-standing genetic connection.
•  Temporal and Concurrent Structure:

  These shared lineages are not randomly distributed but show a temporal structure, with different layers corresponding to different periods, from the Late Neolithic to the Middle Ages.
• Migration Patterns:

  The research associates some of these mtDNA lineages with the movement of people, as evidenced by archaeological findings and studies on Y-chromosome and ancient DNA.
• Languages:

  The study also notes an increase in the maternal effective population size during the Iron Age, coinciding with the diversification time of Finnic languages, suggesting a link between language and genetic history.
• Homogeneity Notion:

  Unlike the general perception of a relatively homogenous European mitochondrial genepool, this study reveals a geographic pattern in mtDNA distribution, particularly when considering related populations like Finland and Estonia.
• Limited Shared Lineages with Sweden:

  Despite geographic proximity and historical Swedish settlements, only a small percentage of mtDNA sequences in both Finland and Estonia form common clusters with Sweden (8% in Finland and only 2% in Estonia), indicating a more significant genetic contribution from other sources.

Old Novgorod

 According to Russian historical books, Novgorod was a multinational trading place, whose administration represented an early form of democracy. The city's nationalities also include Finns and Karelians, who are originally from Finnish tribes.

The graphic I have made now indeed shows that Finnish roots can still be found 554 years after the city lost its independence. Moscow conquered the city in 1471. Finnish heritage today is of course not even close to what it was at the time of Novgorod's greatness.

It must be considered that the current PCA only covers the relationships between the peoples represented in it. For example, Siberian heritage is therefore ignored, as are Caucasian and southern influences. Scandinavia and the Baltic have been taken into account. Of course, a two-dimensional presentation with the two most significant PCA dimensions does not cover all similarities, but based on the image it is clear that in Novgorod, Finnishness is clearly stronger than Scandinavianness.

This result raises questions among both Finns and Russians. Politics aside, I fully understand the problems with genetics-based demography because of its possible new interpretations. However, we must ask what is a new interpretation of things and whether a new interpretation of history is always progressive. These things need to be examined openly, both in terms of the data and the results obtained.

Mordovians lean towards eastern Finno-Ugric people, which are not included in this picture.

The Kursk sample is an outlier, drifting another one a bit to the same direction.

New article sheds light on the Scandinavian Iron Age

 Here is an interesting article (-> link )  that definitely requires more in-depth study. The migration history of the Scandinavian Iron Age has been divided into three phases using a new (?) arithmetic. In the first phase, in the Middle Roman Iron Age, we see migrations from northern Germany and Scandinavia to Central Europe. In the second phase, covering the later Roman Iron Age, the Migration Period and the Merovingian period, we see migrations from the south (it will say from Central Europe) into Scandinavia. This migration would explain two key observations: 1) Anglo-Saxon finds deep in the Swedish Great Lakes region, suggesting even more southern cultural influences, and 2) the shift of the genetic makeup of modern Scandinavians to a more southern location compared to earlier Scandinavian genome samples. In the third phase, during the Viking Age, the expansion of Scandinavian trade and military expeditions to all directions.

My task is to search the Middle Roman Age samples used in the study and place them in a Fennoscandinavian context. 

Viking Age samples among Scandinavians without Scandinavian similarity

Due to the acidic soil of Finland, which I already referred to earlier, organic matter can be preserved in it for a maximum of 1000 years, in special cases 1500 years. Mostly in the rest of the world, and also in the area surrounding Finland, organic matter can be preserved for thousands, even tens of thousands of years. The reason for the acidity of the soil is the lack of limestone. Finland is one of the oldest soils on Earth and is made up of granite and gneiss. A uniform soil of a similar age can only be found in Canada. For example, in Estonia, south of the Gulf of Finland, the main soil material is limestone, sandstone and clay, in which organic matter is preserved well. The bedrock is hundreds of meters deep in Estonia, while in Finland it is almost at the surface. 

Due to this preservation problem, the prehistory of the Finns is largely shrouded in mystery. Generally speaking, it is difficult to reliably conclude about the course of prehistory from the current population, because peoples mix over thousands of years. If you mix 50 grams of salt with one liter of water, you get 4.76% salt water, even though the mixture still contains 1 liter of original fresh water. For this reason, the evidence that 5% Siberian proves that Finns came from Siberia is weak. 

Siberian ancestry is found throughout northeastern Europe, because the region borders the settlement area of ​​​​Siberian tribes. The same applies to northern Russians, to a greater extent, after the Slavs moved closer to the Siberian-based settlement. Of course, the Uralic language came from the east. 

Over the course of thousands of years, peoples have mixed, languages ​​​​and genes have also diverged everywhere. The final disposal place of overzealous interdisciplinary theories, often racist, has always been subsequently in the dustbin of historical research. The ambitions of today's researcher do not differ substantially from the ambitions of a researcher in the 19th century. There is no reason to be complacent. Knowledge increases, becomes often more comlicated and it opens up new possibilities for making correct, but also incorrect, conclusions. Sometimes new knowledge can be based on old, sometimes not. History has been a continuous mixing of ideas and object cultures.

The dstat test I have now performed describes the relationship of Finns, Estonians, Poles and Swedes to the Viking Age samples I used in the previous test. The reliability of the small number of SNPs in the samples is not top-notch, but a clear consistency is visible. Yellow cells mean more similarity with the ancient sample in the first column.

These samples represent only a fraction of Scandinavian samples representing Baltic Finnic or merely Finnish likelihood or mixtures of typical Viking Age Scandinavians and Baltic Finnic people.

Käännöstulokset

Käänn

Läh

Käännöstulokset

KäännöstulDue to the acidic soil of Finland, which I already referred to earlier, organic matter can be preserved in it for a maximum of 1000 years, in special cases 1500 years. Mostly in the rest of the world, and also in the area surrounding Finland, organic matter can be preserved for thousands, even tens of thousands of years. The reason for the acidity of the soil is the lack of limestone. Finland is one of the oldest soils on Earth and is made up of granite and gneiss. A uniform soil of a similar age can only be found in Canada. For example, in Estonia, south of the Gulf of Finland, the main soil material is limestone, sandstone and clay, in which organic matter is preserved well. The bedrock is hundreds of meters deep in Estonia, while in Finland it is almost at the surface.

Where have all ancient Finns gone?

Do we need ancient Finnic samples from Eura? Maybe not, because Finns escaped the curse of the acidic soil elsewhere. Some went to Aldeigjuborg, some to Ojumaa. A Finnish Eura woman traveled to Aldeigjuborg (the ancient name of Staraja Ladoga) , N1a traders went to Ojumaa (the ancient name of Gotland). The woman was also identified as ancient Eura citizen based on the carbon isotopes of the food she ate, explained here.  All of these cases are identified as ancient Finns based on Dstat and Eurogenes-G25 analysis. In addition to these three, I found several potential Finnish samples.

Eurogenes distances:

Sample data from the study https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2688-8 can be found here.  

Edit 19.4.24 16.30

The test with the Eurogenes K13 admixture test shows that several people I have assessed as Finns meet the criteria for Baltic and North Atlantic shares. Estonians typically have a smaller North Atlantic share than Finns (about 30% for Estonians, even less for Balts), while Swedes have a North Atlantic share closer to 50%. Finns fall in between. The Baltic share is the inverse of the North Atlantic share. A high Siberian share is typical for Finns, but its amount depends on the amount of Sámi admixture. The Siberian share of modern Sámi Finns varies between 3-12%. VK21 falls in the middle of this area. Staraja Ladogan lady VK21 is most definitely Finnish by modern standards. The other VK samples are in the border area between Estonia and Finland, with exception of VK160, which falls into a Baltic category (maybe VK457 too). West Asia and West-Med were the Achilles heels of this test (West-Med was randomly drawn out from the North Atlantic)

G25 coordinate exercize

 It's time to come up with something to fill the blog with again, so I thought I'd take a look at what Iron Age Northern Europe looks like in the light of the G25 coordinates. The first picture shows the result after removing the Iron Age samples from the region of the modern Russia and the second one shows the results of all samples.

A few observations:

- Iron Age samples found in Sweden spread genetically eastward over a wide area. The influence of the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea can be seen on the Swedish side and many samples look like Balts, but only one shows Asian (Saami) affinity, four in lesser amount.

- the deceased in the Viking graves found in Poland are related to some influence from the eastern side of Sweden.  However, the deceased from the Polish Wielbark culture are quite Central European.

- there are still no samples of the ancient Finnish population from the Finnish region, so no one can say anything for sure about their genetic profile. All speculations about the relative influences of the Finno-Ugric, Germanic and Arctic populations are pointless until we have the ancient Finnish samples available.

- an ethnic profile is the sum of many factors. It involves heredity, language and culture. This test does not aim to present an ethnic profile, but only genetic differentiation by region. It is completely pointless to claim that a Swede is this way, a Finn is that and an Estonian is that. However, by choosing historical samples from the Iron Age and younger, the test provides a good continuity with the present day compared to using older antique samples.

- there is a lot of Asian heritage in the Russian Iron Age sample set, which should be visible in coordinates of the Finns 

- Eurogenes G25 data is based on global PCA coordinates and the result does not correspond to the result based on regional differences. Thus, the result does not correspond to the result obtained based on regional-specific genome data. Regional-specific genome data does not take into account the effect of population connections outside the region, G25 data does. This is a secondary PCA based on G25-coordinates.  

Colors:

Blue Estonia_IA

Blue Estonia_Med

Yellow Sweden_IA

Green Norway_IA

Brown Russia_IA

Brown Ingria:IA

Black Germany_IA

Green Norway_Med

Brown Russia_Med

Black Saxon_Med

Black Germany_Med

Red Poland_Vik

Red Poland_Wielbark

Darkblue Finland_IA

Black/Star mauri, Estonian avg Finnish avg, Swedish avg

Readers, if you want to see your location on the map, plese send your scaled G25 coordinates to the gmail address kassu220977<at> and you will receive a picture in the return mail. I will keep the address active until the end of April and send the results at the beginning of May. I do not need your personal information, only email for the reply.

Older posts moved away from this blog

 They are available here.

Notification: links in old posts don't work

 As I already reminded earlier links in older posts don't work.  This notification because I see people reading also them.  This happens usually with posts before year 2020.  This happened due to a regrettable event with my online service provider who one day annoynced to shut this service.  Because I have somewhat changed my blog content to handle more news than making tests, I decided to let them go.  

One reason to that decision (to make news rather than tests) was that researchers don't today publish ancient genome data.  Also, many tests are not easy to benefit and summarizing results in cases of limited data is always less or more opinions.  We have a lot examples of this made by researchers.

The world changes, so do I.  I try to keep my reader up-to-day of Finnish history revealed by ancient genomes, be critical and objective while evaluating new studies. This means that I try to ignore nationalistic, linguistic and tribal ideologies, as well as "internet warrior" themes.

Some day I'll move older posts to another blog, if I find out how to do it.

Isotopic analysis of individuals of the Eura/Luistari cemetery from the Merovingian to the Viking Age.

The research (->  link ) covers the analysis of the origin of the individuals from the ancient Luistari cemetery using dietary isotopes. I have not delved into this in depth. However, here are two pictures of the differences between the ancient Eura individuals and a third picture in relation to nearby areas. The most interesting thing is probably the similarity with Luistari found in Birka, Mälaren and Öland in Sweden, and the Salme in Saaremaa, Estonia. A couple of samples indicate a migration from Eura to the Staraya Ladoga area. These results would indicate that the migration was directed from Eura to these areas. This isotopic connection of Eura is seen to have occurred in the early Viking Age, not during the Merovingian Era, which is known about its great foreign influence in Eura cemetery finds.  But isotopic evidences don't tell about the origin of people, only what they ate.

I hope you have a useful and enjoyable reading.

ChatGPT tells us about the Finnish history

 I asked ChatGPT about the origin of the Finns and where Germanic loanwords came from in the Finnish language. It seems that ChatGPT's answer depends on the amount of guidance given to it, i.e. it does not have a very high ability to make independent and at the same time logical answers about historical events. I did not ask for a more detailed analysis of where the Finns came from, because the answer would have been obvious. Instead, I asked more specifically about the Germanic influence in Finland, because there are different views on it and I wanted to see how ChatGPT copes with a more complex topic. We will see, the answer depends on how you formulate the question.

You said:

Where did the Finnish people come?

ChatGPT said:

The Finnish genetic history is quite unique, shaped by a mix of ancient migrations, isolation, and genetic influences from various populations over thousands of years. The Finnish people are primarily descendants of the Uralic-speaking groups, whose ancestors are believed to have migrated to the region from areas around the Ural Mountains in Russia around 6,000 to 8,000 years ago. The Finno-Ugric language family (to which Finnish belongs) connects them to other groups in northeastern Europe and Siberia.

Around 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, the Finnish population began mixing with Indo-European groups, notably those arriving from surrounding areas, such as the Balts and Slavs, contributing to their genetic diversity. However, Finland remained relatively isolated compared to much of Europe, which preserved many distinctive genetic features.

Today, Finns have a unique genetic composition characterized by a mix of Uralic and European (mainly Northern European) ancestry. Key traits include a relatively high frequency of certain genetic markers that are less common in neighboring populations. The Finnish gene pool has also been shaped by historical bottlenecks, especially due to periods of population isolation, and genetic drift. The population has low levels of certain genetic diversity, which can be traced back to the founding of the population and its geographic isolation.

Genetic studies also highlight the high prevalence of certain inherited disorders in Finland, such as specific forms of muscular dystrophy and a few rare metabolic diseases, which are believed to have been passed down through generations due to the smaller, isolated gene pool.

In summary, the Finnish people today have a genetically distinct population with Uralic roots, a strong connection to their Northern European neighbors, and a genetic history influenced by both migration and isolation over millennia.

- so far so good.

You said:

Is there any evidence of ancient Scandinavian ancestry in Finnish people? Let's say around 3000 years before present, 2000 years before present or 1000 years before present.

ChatGPT said:

Yes, there is evidence of ancient Scandinavian ancestry in the Finnish population, although the nature and extent of this ancestry have been shaped by historical migrations, genetic exchanges, and interactions. Here’s a breakdown of the evidence at different time periods:

3000 years ago (around 1000 BCE):

Neolithic Period and Early Bronze Age: The Finnish people, or at least the ancestors of modern Finns, were part of a group that belonged to the Finno-Ugric language family. This period is marked by limited contact with Scandinavia. However, some genetic evidence suggests a shared ancestry between the early Finnish population and the people of the broader region, including Scandinavia, due to shared movements of ancient populations.

- possible

Genetic Evidence: Studies show that Finnish populations, while genetically distinct from neighboring Scandinavian populations, still share some genetic markers with them, likely due to prehistoric gene flow from areas like Sweden and Northern Russia.

- Scandinavian genetic markers from Northern Russia?

2000 years ago (around 0 CE):

Iron Age: This period marks more significant interactions between the Finns and neighboring groups, including the Swedes. Archaeological findings suggest that the Finns were involved in trading and cultural exchange with people in Scandinavia. There were some shared cultural elements, such as the use of similar tools, and this could reflect increasing genetic interaction over time.

- why similar tools would mean genetic interaction?

Gene Flow: Genetic studies from the Iron Age suggest that by this time, Finns had begun to receive more influence from Scandinavian populations, likely through migration, trade, or other forms of contact.

- ok

1000 years ago (around 1000 CE):

Viking Age and Medieval Period: During the Viking Age (roughly 8th–11th centuries CE), significant contact between Scandinavia (particularly Sweden) and Finland occurred. The Swedish Vikings had both military and trade interactions with Finland, and many Finns were absorbed into the Swedish Kingdom as it expanded its territory. This period marked a significant influx of Scandinavian genetic material into Finland, particularly in the southwestern parts of the country.

- ok, but the Swedish kingdom didn't exist yet.

Cultural Integration: The Swedish Crown's political and military dominance over Finland from the Middle Ages onward also led to increased intermarriage and population movement, leaving a clear Scandinavian genetic imprint in the Finnish gene pool, especially in coastal and southwestern areas.

- ok

In summary, evidence of Scandinavian ancestry in Finnish people is evident across multiple time periods. While early genetic connections were more indirect, increasing interactions, especially from the Iron Age onwards, led to a significant Scandinavian influence on the Finnish gene pool, especially in coastal areas.

- ok

You said:

Summarize where and when did the Finnish male haplogroup I1-L258 come to Finland? Please take into account its age, which is now calculated to be around 2300 years.

ChatGPT said:

The Finnish male haplogroup I1-L258 likely arrived in Finland around 2300 years ago, during the early stages of the Iron Age. This haplogroup is thought to have spread from the region of what is now southern Scandinavia, particularly from the area corresponding to modern-day Sweden.

- ok

It is believed that this haplogroup was carried to Finland by prehistoric populations, specifically those who were part of the broader migration and settlement patterns in Northern Europe during this period. These early settlers were likely part of the larger Proto-Finnic-speaking or Uralic-speaking groups, who were beginning to occupy the region that would later become Finland.

- chat-GPT here suppose that I-L258 was distributed by Proto-Finnic and Uralic speakers.

The spread of haplogroup I1-L258 is associated with the movement of small groups of people, rather than large-scale migrations, contributing to its gradual presence in Finland. Over the centuries, it became more concentrated in the Finnish population, particularly in the southwestern and coastal areas of Finland, due to the gene flow from neighboring populations in Scandinavia.

- ok

You said:

please explain the origin of Germanic loan words in the Finnish language from the oldest to the latest loan words.

ChatGPT said:

The origin of Germanic loanwords in Finnish can be traced back to several waves of contact between Finnish-speaking peoples and various Germanic groups over the centuries. Here's a summary of the different stages of Germanic influence:

Early Germanic Influence (Prehistoric to Early Medieval Period):

The earliest Germanic influence on Finnish occurred in prehistoric times, likely through indirect contact via trade and migration. This influence was limited, and the Germanic loans were few. Words from this period are primarily related to trade, social organization, and early technology, reflecting cultural exchange in the Baltic region. Examples include basic terms related to goods and tools.

- chat-GPT assumes that these loan words were adapted in the Baltic region.  Not bad at all, but yet easy to interpret.

Viking Age (8th to 11th Century):

During the Viking Age, Finnish-speaking people came into more direct contact with Scandinavian Vikings. Scandinavian raids, settlements, and trade likely facilitated a greater exchange of vocabulary. This period saw the introduction of words related to navigation, warfare, and social structure. Terms like kuningas ("king") and laiva ("ship") come from Old Norse.

- chat-GPT links "kuningas" and "laiva" to  Old Norse.  I recall that those two words represent Proto Germanic.  Chat-GPT dupposse that during the Viking Age contact became more common and direct.  Actually many historians state that during that time contacts decreased.

Medieval Period (12th to 15th Century):

With the establishment of Swedish rule over Finland in the 12th century, the influence of Old Swedish (a Germanic language) on Finnish grew significantly. The Swedish presence in Finland introduced Germanic words relating to governance, religion, law, and daily life. Many administrative terms, such as herra ("lord") and raati ("council"), are of Swedish (and therefore Germanic) origin. This period represents a major influx of loanwords into Finnish.

- ok

Early Modern Period (16th to 18th Century):

The Swedish influence remained strong, particularly with the codification of the Finnish language in the 16th century by Mikael Agricola and the development of Finnish as a written language. Germanic loanwords from this time cover a broad range of domains, including military, science, and education, reflecting the influence of the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods. Examples include koulu ("school") and tiede ("science").

- ok

19th Century to Present:

In the 19th and 20th centuries, Finland's relationship with Sweden continued, and there was also indirect influence from German-speaking countries and the wider Germanic world. More loanwords entered Finnish, especially in the fields of technology, industry, and culture. Modern words like tehdas ("factory") and bensiini ("gasoline") can be traced to Germanic roots.

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Overall, Germanic loanwords in Finnish have evolved from small, indirect influences in prehistoric times to more substantial linguistic imports through sustained contacts with Scandinavian and Germanic cultures, particularly from the Viking Age onwards and under Swedish rule. The process was gradual, with varying intensity across centuries.

- chatGPT uses term "indirect" continuously when figuring out how Germanic loan words were adapted.  I don't understand what it means to have indirect influence?

You said:

Summarize could it be true that Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse loan words in the Finnish and Estonian languages were adapted after the eastward migration of the male haplogroup I1-L258. As we know the age of the I1-L258 is around 2300 years, which matches with the first Germanic loan words in those two languages.

ChatGPT said:

It is plausible that Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse loanwords in Finnish and Estonian were influenced by the eastward migration of the male haplogroup I1-L258, which is estimated to have originated around 2,300 years ago. This timing aligns with the period when Germanic-speaking peoples began interacting with Finno-Ugric groups, including early Finnish and Estonian speakers. The migration of the I1-L258 haplogroup could have been part of the broader movement of peoples and cultural exchange that facilitated the incorporation of Germanic and Norse elements into the vocabulary of these languages. However, this connection is based on a combination of linguistic evidence and genetic data, and while the timing overlaps, direct causality remains speculative.

- again, chatGPT wants to underline, that there hasn't been direct influence between Germanic and Finnic speakers.  I wonder why it is so important for it.

You said:

at first some background. Latest genetic research date the age of the male haplogroup I1-L258 in Finland to the late northern Bronze Age or to the beginning of the northern Iron Age, which means 300-500 BCE. Predecessors of this haplogroup lived in the Southern Scandinavia, thus the origin of the I-L258 haplogroup is proven to be in Southern Scandinavia. The Proto Germanic language was spoken between 500 BCE and 200 AD. Now, taking into account this background, what is the probability for a possibility that Proto-Germanic loan words in Finnish were adapted during this L258 migration?

ChatGPT said:

The background you've provided gives a good basis to analyze the potential for Proto-Germanic loanwords in Finnish. Here's a brief summary of key points:

Male Haplogroup I1-L258: This haplogroup, found in Finland, traces its origins to the late northern Bronze Age or early Iron Age (300-500 BCE). It is believed to have been carried by populations migrating from Southern Scandinavia.

Proto-Germanic Language: Proto-Germanic was spoken between 500 BCE and 200 AD in the region, which overlaps with the migration period of the I1-L258 haplogroup.

Migration & Language Contact: The migration of people carrying this haplogroup would have taken place from Southern Scandinavia to Finland, which potentially brought them into contact with speakers of Proto-Germanic.

Probability of Proto-Germanic Loanwords in Finnish

Given the migration of populations carrying the I1-L258 haplogroup from Southern Scandinavia to Finland around 300-500 BCE, it's plausible that during this movement, there could have been cultural and linguistic contact between Proto-Germanic speakers and the Finno-Ugric-speaking population in the area that would become Finland.

Historical Context of Migration: The timing of the migration of I1-L258 haplogroups (late Bronze Age to early Iron Age) aligns with the period when Proto-Germanic speakers were actively present in nearby regions, particularly in Southern Scandinavia. As these groups moved into Finland, there is a high likelihood of cultural and linguistic exchange, especially with the Proto-Germanic-speaking populations.

Proto-Germanic Influence: The contact between Finno-Ugric languages (which would evolve into Finnish) and Proto-Germanic speakers could lead to the borrowing of words and concepts related to technology, culture, and trade. It's worth noting that language contact often leads to loanwords, particularly in areas like trade goods, metallurgy, warfare, and social organization.

Linguistic Evidence: Finnish, as a Uralic language, has a limited connection to the Indo-European languages like Proto-Germanic. However, historical linguists have identified several loanwords from Proto-Germanic and other Indo-European languages in Finnish. The probability of these loanwords coming from the Proto-Germanic period is quite high, especially if they were introduced through trade, warfare, or migration.

L258 Migration Specifics: While the L258 migration itself was more about population movement rather than a direct cultural-linguistic shift, it would have placed these groups near Germanic-speaking populations. As a result, Finnish speakers could have absorbed vocabulary from Proto-Germanic during this period.

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Conclusion

Given the timing of the I1-L258 haplogroup migration and the contemporaneous presence of Proto-Germanic speakers, the probability that Proto-Germanic loanwords in Finnish were influenced by this migration is relatively high. Linguistic exchange between the migrating populations and the local Finno-Ugric-speaking populations could have facilitated the incorporation of Proto-Germanic vocabulary, especially in the context of shared technologies and cultural practices.

- ok