Older posts moved away from this blog

 They are available here.

Notification: links in old posts don't work

 As I already reminded earlier links in older posts don't work.  This notification because I see people reading also them.  This happens usually with posts before year 2020.  This happened due to a regrettable event with my online service provider who one day annoynced to shut this service.  Because I have somewhat changed my blog content to handle more news than making tests, I decided to let them go.  

One reason to that decision (to make news rather than tests) was that researchers don't today publish ancient genome data.  Also, many tests are not easy to benefit and summarizing results in cases of limited data is always less or more opinions.  We have a lot examples of this made by researchers.

The world changes, so do I.  I try to keep my reader up-to-day of Finnish history revealed by ancient genomes, be critical and objective while evaluating new studies. This means that I try to ignore nationalistic, linguistic and tribal ideologies, as well as "internet warrior" themes.

Some day I'll move older posts to another blog, if I find out how to do it.

Isotopic analysis of individuals of the Eura/Luistari cemetery from the Merovingian to the Viking Age.

The research (->  link ) covers the analysis of the origin of the individuals from the ancient Luistari cemetery using dietary isotopes. I have not delved into this in depth. However, here are two pictures of the differences between the ancient Eura individuals and a third picture in relation to nearby areas. The most interesting thing is probably the similarity with Luistari found in Birka, Mälaren and Öland in Sweden, and the Salme in Saaremaa, Estonia. A couple of samples indicate a migration from Eura to the Staraya Ladoga area. These results would indicate that the migration was directed from Eura to these areas. This isotopic connection of Eura is seen to have occurred in the early Viking Age, not during the Merovingian Era, which is known about its great foreign influence in Eura cemetery finds.  But isotopic evidences don't tell about the origin of people, only what they ate.

I hope you have a useful and enjoyable reading.

ChatGPT tells us about the Finnish history

 I asked ChatGPT about the origin of the Finns and where Germanic loanwords came from in the Finnish language. It seems that ChatGPT's answer depends on the amount of guidance given to it, i.e. it does not have a very high ability to make independent and at the same time logical answers about historical events. I did not ask for a more detailed analysis of where the Finns came from, because the answer would have been obvious. Instead, I asked more specifically about the Germanic influence in Finland, because there are different views on it and I wanted to see how ChatGPT copes with a more complex topic. We will see, the answer depends on how you formulate the question.

You said:

Where did the Finnish people come?

ChatGPT said:

The Finnish genetic history is quite unique, shaped by a mix of ancient migrations, isolation, and genetic influences from various populations over thousands of years. The Finnish people are primarily descendants of the Uralic-speaking groups, whose ancestors are believed to have migrated to the region from areas around the Ural Mountains in Russia around 6,000 to 8,000 years ago. The Finno-Ugric language family (to which Finnish belongs) connects them to other groups in northeastern Europe and Siberia.

Around 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, the Finnish population began mixing with Indo-European groups, notably those arriving from surrounding areas, such as the Balts and Slavs, contributing to their genetic diversity. However, Finland remained relatively isolated compared to much of Europe, which preserved many distinctive genetic features.

Today, Finns have a unique genetic composition characterized by a mix of Uralic and European (mainly Northern European) ancestry. Key traits include a relatively high frequency of certain genetic markers that are less common in neighboring populations. The Finnish gene pool has also been shaped by historical bottlenecks, especially due to periods of population isolation, and genetic drift. The population has low levels of certain genetic diversity, which can be traced back to the founding of the population and its geographic isolation.

Genetic studies also highlight the high prevalence of certain inherited disorders in Finland, such as specific forms of muscular dystrophy and a few rare metabolic diseases, which are believed to have been passed down through generations due to the smaller, isolated gene pool.

In summary, the Finnish people today have a genetically distinct population with Uralic roots, a strong connection to their Northern European neighbors, and a genetic history influenced by both migration and isolation over millennia.

- so far so good.

You said:

Is there any evidence of ancient Scandinavian ancestry in Finnish people? Let's say around 3000 years before present, 2000 years before present or 1000 years before present.

ChatGPT said:

Yes, there is evidence of ancient Scandinavian ancestry in the Finnish population, although the nature and extent of this ancestry have been shaped by historical migrations, genetic exchanges, and interactions. Here’s a breakdown of the evidence at different time periods:

3000 years ago (around 1000 BCE):

Neolithic Period and Early Bronze Age: The Finnish people, or at least the ancestors of modern Finns, were part of a group that belonged to the Finno-Ugric language family. This period is marked by limited contact with Scandinavia. However, some genetic evidence suggests a shared ancestry between the early Finnish population and the people of the broader region, including Scandinavia, due to shared movements of ancient populations.

- possible

Genetic Evidence: Studies show that Finnish populations, while genetically distinct from neighboring Scandinavian populations, still share some genetic markers with them, likely due to prehistoric gene flow from areas like Sweden and Northern Russia.

- Scandinavian genetic markers from Northern Russia?

2000 years ago (around 0 CE):

Iron Age: This period marks more significant interactions between the Finns and neighboring groups, including the Swedes. Archaeological findings suggest that the Finns were involved in trading and cultural exchange with people in Scandinavia. There were some shared cultural elements, such as the use of similar tools, and this could reflect increasing genetic interaction over time.

- why similar tools would mean genetic interaction?

Gene Flow: Genetic studies from the Iron Age suggest that by this time, Finns had begun to receive more influence from Scandinavian populations, likely through migration, trade, or other forms of contact.

- ok

1000 years ago (around 1000 CE):

Viking Age and Medieval Period: During the Viking Age (roughly 8th–11th centuries CE), significant contact between Scandinavia (particularly Sweden) and Finland occurred. The Swedish Vikings had both military and trade interactions with Finland, and many Finns were absorbed into the Swedish Kingdom as it expanded its territory. This period marked a significant influx of Scandinavian genetic material into Finland, particularly in the southwestern parts of the country.

- ok, but the Swedish kingdom didn't exist yet.

Cultural Integration: The Swedish Crown's political and military dominance over Finland from the Middle Ages onward also led to increased intermarriage and population movement, leaving a clear Scandinavian genetic imprint in the Finnish gene pool, especially in coastal and southwestern areas.

- ok

In summary, evidence of Scandinavian ancestry in Finnish people is evident across multiple time periods. While early genetic connections were more indirect, increasing interactions, especially from the Iron Age onwards, led to a significant Scandinavian influence on the Finnish gene pool, especially in coastal areas.

- ok

You said:

Summarize where and when did the Finnish male haplogroup I1-L258 come to Finland? Please take into account its age, which is now calculated to be around 2300 years.

ChatGPT said:

The Finnish male haplogroup I1-L258 likely arrived in Finland around 2300 years ago, during the early stages of the Iron Age. This haplogroup is thought to have spread from the region of what is now southern Scandinavia, particularly from the area corresponding to modern-day Sweden.

- ok

It is believed that this haplogroup was carried to Finland by prehistoric populations, specifically those who were part of the broader migration and settlement patterns in Northern Europe during this period. These early settlers were likely part of the larger Proto-Finnic-speaking or Uralic-speaking groups, who were beginning to occupy the region that would later become Finland.

- chat-GPT here suppose that I-L258 was distributed by Proto-Finnic and Uralic speakers.

The spread of haplogroup I1-L258 is associated with the movement of small groups of people, rather than large-scale migrations, contributing to its gradual presence in Finland. Over the centuries, it became more concentrated in the Finnish population, particularly in the southwestern and coastal areas of Finland, due to the gene flow from neighboring populations in Scandinavia.

- ok

You said:

please explain the origin of Germanic loan words in the Finnish language from the oldest to the latest loan words.

ChatGPT said:

The origin of Germanic loanwords in Finnish can be traced back to several waves of contact between Finnish-speaking peoples and various Germanic groups over the centuries. Here's a summary of the different stages of Germanic influence:

Early Germanic Influence (Prehistoric to Early Medieval Period):

The earliest Germanic influence on Finnish occurred in prehistoric times, likely through indirect contact via trade and migration. This influence was limited, and the Germanic loans were few. Words from this period are primarily related to trade, social organization, and early technology, reflecting cultural exchange in the Baltic region. Examples include basic terms related to goods and tools.

- chat-GPT assumes that these loan words were adapted in the Baltic region.  Not bad at all, but yet easy to interpret.

Viking Age (8th to 11th Century):

During the Viking Age, Finnish-speaking people came into more direct contact with Scandinavian Vikings. Scandinavian raids, settlements, and trade likely facilitated a greater exchange of vocabulary. This period saw the introduction of words related to navigation, warfare, and social structure. Terms like kuningas ("king") and laiva ("ship") come from Old Norse.

- chat-GPT links "kuningas" and "laiva" to  Old Norse.  I recall that those two words represent Proto Germanic.  Chat-GPT dupposse that during the Viking Age contact became more common and direct.  Actually many historians state that during that time contacts decreased.

Medieval Period (12th to 15th Century):

With the establishment of Swedish rule over Finland in the 12th century, the influence of Old Swedish (a Germanic language) on Finnish grew significantly. The Swedish presence in Finland introduced Germanic words relating to governance, religion, law, and daily life. Many administrative terms, such as herra ("lord") and raati ("council"), are of Swedish (and therefore Germanic) origin. This period represents a major influx of loanwords into Finnish.

- ok

Early Modern Period (16th to 18th Century):

The Swedish influence remained strong, particularly with the codification of the Finnish language in the 16th century by Mikael Agricola and the development of Finnish as a written language. Germanic loanwords from this time cover a broad range of domains, including military, science, and education, reflecting the influence of the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods. Examples include koulu ("school") and tiede ("science").

- ok

19th Century to Present:

In the 19th and 20th centuries, Finland's relationship with Sweden continued, and there was also indirect influence from German-speaking countries and the wider Germanic world. More loanwords entered Finnish, especially in the fields of technology, industry, and culture. Modern words like tehdas ("factory") and bensiini ("gasoline") can be traced to Germanic roots.

- ok

Overall, Germanic loanwords in Finnish have evolved from small, indirect influences in prehistoric times to more substantial linguistic imports through sustained contacts with Scandinavian and Germanic cultures, particularly from the Viking Age onwards and under Swedish rule. The process was gradual, with varying intensity across centuries.

- chatGPT uses term "indirect" continuously when figuring out how Germanic loan words were adapted.  I don't understand what it means to have indirect influence?

You said:

Summarize could it be true that Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse loan words in the Finnish and Estonian languages were adapted after the eastward migration of the male haplogroup I1-L258. As we know the age of the I1-L258 is around 2300 years, which matches with the first Germanic loan words in those two languages.

ChatGPT said:

It is plausible that Proto-Germanic and Proto-Norse loanwords in Finnish and Estonian were influenced by the eastward migration of the male haplogroup I1-L258, which is estimated to have originated around 2,300 years ago. This timing aligns with the period when Germanic-speaking peoples began interacting with Finno-Ugric groups, including early Finnish and Estonian speakers. The migration of the I1-L258 haplogroup could have been part of the broader movement of peoples and cultural exchange that facilitated the incorporation of Germanic and Norse elements into the vocabulary of these languages. However, this connection is based on a combination of linguistic evidence and genetic data, and while the timing overlaps, direct causality remains speculative.

- again, chatGPT wants to underline, that there hasn't been direct influence between Germanic and Finnic speakers.  I wonder why it is so important for it.

You said:

at first some background. Latest genetic research date the age of the male haplogroup I1-L258 in Finland to the late northern Bronze Age or to the beginning of the northern Iron Age, which means 300-500 BCE. Predecessors of this haplogroup lived in the Southern Scandinavia, thus the origin of the I-L258 haplogroup is proven to be in Southern Scandinavia. The Proto Germanic language was spoken between 500 BCE and 200 AD. Now, taking into account this background, what is the probability for a possibility that Proto-Germanic loan words in Finnish were adapted during this L258 migration?

ChatGPT said:

The background you've provided gives a good basis to analyze the potential for Proto-Germanic loanwords in Finnish. Here's a brief summary of key points:

Male Haplogroup I1-L258: This haplogroup, found in Finland, traces its origins to the late northern Bronze Age or early Iron Age (300-500 BCE). It is believed to have been carried by populations migrating from Southern Scandinavia.

Proto-Germanic Language: Proto-Germanic was spoken between 500 BCE and 200 AD in the region, which overlaps with the migration period of the I1-L258 haplogroup.

Migration & Language Contact: The migration of people carrying this haplogroup would have taken place from Southern Scandinavia to Finland, which potentially brought them into contact with speakers of Proto-Germanic.

Probability of Proto-Germanic Loanwords in Finnish

Given the migration of populations carrying the I1-L258 haplogroup from Southern Scandinavia to Finland around 300-500 BCE, it's plausible that during this movement, there could have been cultural and linguistic contact between Proto-Germanic speakers and the Finno-Ugric-speaking population in the area that would become Finland.

Historical Context of Migration: The timing of the migration of I1-L258 haplogroups (late Bronze Age to early Iron Age) aligns with the period when Proto-Germanic speakers were actively present in nearby regions, particularly in Southern Scandinavia. As these groups moved into Finland, there is a high likelihood of cultural and linguistic exchange, especially with the Proto-Germanic-speaking populations.

Proto-Germanic Influence: The contact between Finno-Ugric languages (which would evolve into Finnish) and Proto-Germanic speakers could lead to the borrowing of words and concepts related to technology, culture, and trade. It's worth noting that language contact often leads to loanwords, particularly in areas like trade goods, metallurgy, warfare, and social organization.

Linguistic Evidence: Finnish, as a Uralic language, has a limited connection to the Indo-European languages like Proto-Germanic. However, historical linguists have identified several loanwords from Proto-Germanic and other Indo-European languages in Finnish. The probability of these loanwords coming from the Proto-Germanic period is quite high, especially if they were introduced through trade, warfare, or migration.

L258 Migration Specifics: While the L258 migration itself was more about population movement rather than a direct cultural-linguistic shift, it would have placed these groups near Germanic-speaking populations. As a result, Finnish speakers could have absorbed vocabulary from Proto-Germanic during this period.

- ok

Conclusion

Given the timing of the I1-L258 haplogroup migration and the contemporaneous presence of Proto-Germanic speakers, the probability that Proto-Germanic loanwords in Finnish were influenced by this migration is relatively high. Linguistic exchange between the migrating populations and the local Finno-Ugric-speaking populations could have facilitated the incorporation of Proto-Germanic vocabulary, especially in the context of shared technologies and cultural practices.

- ok

New Russian study, data analysis

 Fortunately, Russian researchers, unlike their Finnish colleagues, always publish the data related to their research, and this way it was possible to download it for my own tests. First, I ran a PCA image on European populations. The picture does not so much aim to tell the position of the Eastern Baltic-Finnic populations on the genetic map of Europe, as to ensure the correctness of the data, excluding possible duplicates and outliers. The picture tells the fact that some new published samples show Baltic-Finnic affinity and identify totally with the Finnish samples well.  Those groups are widely known to have a Finnish origin, which was already stated in the study.  So there is nothing surprising.  Some other new samples in the study didn't show signigicant link with Finns and grouped with Russians, but, as we see in Dstat results, also they are related with Finns.  It has to be understood that a many-to-many test like PCA, selecting common genome  components of all samples, makes compromises in one-to-one relations.  Of particular interest is that the Mordva, who belong to another eastern Finnic group, clearly stand out from the Baltic-Finnic groups and appear to be an approximate Russian-Chuvash mix, while the Baltic-Finnic groups, as their name suggests, place between the Baltic people and the more boreal Finno-Ugric.

It's also interesting to note that my own location is moving more and more towards the Balts. Eastern Baltic-Finnic people don't like me, even though commercial American tests define me as 100% Finnish. This commercial test result contradicts all scientific admixture and PCA analyses, though. This can be explained by the fact that American commercial tests are aimed at Americans who are interested in the familiar matter of where on the old continent their ancestors came from. It is easy to make a dedicated test to identify a population with distinct and local recent (let's say 8-10 generations) ancestry and disregard minor or older genetic drift. Of course this is a dissatisfactory situation for us living on the old continent. This paragraph as a side note.

The material, other than study samples,  was downloaded from the Reichlab website without changing anything, except for the Finnish ones, which are from the 1000genomes project. Regarding PCA, I limited the number of Finns to ten random samples. The Dstat data includes all 99 Finns.

Dstat results show strong Finnish kinship in all Karelians and Ingerians, as well as in Veps and Votes. By comparing Finns and Estonians in relation to the east Baltic-Finnic groups of the study, it can be concluded that the Karelians, Ingrians and Veps are most closely related to the Finns and the Estonians to the other east Baltic-Finnic groups of the study. From the comparison between Finns and Russians, it can be concluded that the Novgorod, Pskov and Yaroslavl groups are clearly leaning away from the Finns, but whether this is due to the Estonian or Russian proximity of these research groups remains to be determined. Maybe I'll come back to this later.

Test format: dstat (Finnish,group to compare:study group,outgroup)

Edit 28.12.24 22:00

It turned out that the Estonians are cousins ​​of the Baltic-Finnic groups of Novgorod, Pskov and Yaroslavl. Only Andreapol ranks at the same distance as the Estonians when measured by genetic drift.

And I couldn't resist comparing myself to Estonians. In the groups Ingrians, Karelians (Livvi), Karelians (Tver), Novgorod (others) and Yaroslavl (Mologa) we are on the same level (approximately).

Reading about the lost tribes 

Mologa history -> link

Novgorod history -> link

New Russian study is worth reading

 A new Russian study (-> link ) describes the history, genetics and migrations of the Baltic-Finnic groups around the Baltic, Ladoga and White Sea. Overall, I think the description is accurate. The usual conceptual blunders of non-Finns and non-Estonians regarding the words Finnic and Finno-Ugric are also largely avoided, but not completely. The research is groundbreaking in a way, because nothing similar has been done by Finns and Estonians. This does not mean that Finns and Estonians do not know the same things. However, this study provides a lot of new information for those less familiar with the subject.

Seen through the eyes of a Finn, the history of the eastern Baltic-Finnic groups gets a special mention, which I think is broadly correct. The division into Karelian language and Karelian dialect will not be made. I would have liked clarifications on other language issues as well. The timings of the migrations of the eastern Baltic-Finnic groups give special reason for thanks. I also found new information from these, and I strongly believe in the Russians' know-how. A small minus is that first the birth of these groups is described correctly as a result of the west-east migrations of the first millennium, which surprised me, because in Russian studies, Baltic-Finnic migrations to the Baltic Sea are usually described only in the opposite order, and then in the genetics part of the study, the grouping is done on the basis of eastern groups.

Seen on the basis of old information, the Tarand burial method is somewhat illogically connected to the easternmost branch of the N-haplogroup.  The branch Z1927 is characteristic for the eastern Baltic-Finnic groups and the Tarand graves are part of the western Baltic-Finnic culture. Although this contradiction is noticed, there is no explanation. The significance of the Tarand graves in the investigation of the origin of the Baltic-Finnic populations is seen as essential. However, it must be reminded that the presence of Z1927 in Karelia alone does not necessarily prove the direction of migration. Very often mixing of different populations and population bottlenecks cause local changes in both culture and inheritance, and it cannot be assumed that Z1927 was involved in the migration that led to the spread of the Tarand burial.

I don't comment on the genetic results because I don't have the necessary material to make comparisons.

Edit 21.12.24 12:30-13:30

I found those popular Eutogenes G25 coordinates for the study samples. Eurogenes G25 is an admixture in good and bad.  Using ancient samples there is certain value, but using modern populations you can't make decisions about the origin or ancestry. 

Here three results of Finns, first my own result.  

Target: maurim1_scaled Distance: 0.6842% / 0.00684208
26.2	Shetlandic
22.8	Ingrians
18.6	Pskov_(Porkhov)
8.4	Ingrian_Finns
5.0	Votes
4.8	Veps
4.4	Karelians_(North)
3.6	Karelians_(SW_Karelians_(SW_Livvi)
3.2	Lithuanian_VZ
1.2	Lithuanian_PZ
0.8	Dusun
0.8	Shor_Khakassia
0.2	Karitiana

Target: Finnish_Southwest Distance: 0.7902% / 0.00790222
26.2	Karelians_(Tver)
23.0	Icelandic
17.8	Ingrians
14.4	Veps
9.8	Ingrian_Finns
7.6	Karelians_(SE_Karelians_(SE_Ludic)
1.2	Shetlandic

Target: Finnish_East Distance: 0.6825% / 0.00682458
45.8	Ingrians
41.0	Ingrian_Finns
7.4	Karelians_(North)
2.8	Saami
1.2	Veps
0.8	Norwegian
0.6	Mari
0.4	Ethiopian_Anuak

Here results for the study sample averages. I used dist col 0.5 to avoid excessive columns. The last column is Russian Ryazan

N haplogroup in FamilytreeDna

All YDNA haplogroups can be found in FamilytreeDna's distribution maps. The results are based on the results of their customers and the ancestry information they provide. The global coverage of the samples is affected by customer activity in different regions and countries, where there is great variation. In Western Europe, the coverage is good, but e.g. finding out the prehistoric origin of Finnish samples belonging to the N group is hampered by the lack of samples from Eastern Europe and Asia on FamilytreeDna's maps. In addition, it would seem that FamilytreeDna's knowledge of the historical structure of the N-haplogroup is incomplete, which fact is reflected in the classification of the samples into different levels of the haplotree. Due to these shortcomings and illogicalities I don't see it as possible to draw similar conclusions about the course of prehistory as I did with Finnish haplogroup I.  Please give feedback directly to FamilytreeDna, as these maps, if logical, would be very useful.

Y5005

CTS6496

Z1941

VL62

CTS8565

Z1936

VL29

CTS9976

L1025

L550

CTS6496+CTS7189